This farmhouse style kitchen is clean and elegant.

I remember reading an article about a model who threw up her hands and told the world she was sick of perfection and photo shopping and in protest posted pictures of herself without any photo retouching.

She showed her wrinkles and her moles and all her flaws.

And I read the article and looked at the pictures and thought to myself….

….there’s something wonderful about imperfection.

And it got me thinking about our house.

And how I’m always showing you the finished and the styled and rooms without a hair out of place and you might be drinking coffee and rolling your eyes and wondering where my television set is.

Truth.

Houses were meant for living.

So yesterday, I walked through the house and took pictures to show our house in real life.  I left everything where it was and photographed the imperfection, the during, the living, the orange juice and the hairy dog brush.

Here’s a little bit of what real life looks like at the farmhouse.

No home is perfect, this dining room has a dog bone on the ground and a messy entry table.

We’ll start slowly.

The dining room never really looks messy because we only dine there on random occasions.

Here’s Buddy, our golden retriever and his special not-rawhide bone.  There are bones just like this all over the house that he hides and you might come across when you are looking for Christmas place settings.

The striped walls of this entryway look great against the chestnut wood floors.

Here’s a better view of the hallway with the random light fixture from upstairs.

Someone left me a comment asking what happened to the red ceiling medallion and the light fixture and did we replace them in the imagination room.

Yes.  We replaced the light upstairs and installed the cutest bubble light fixture upstairs and the old light fixture is going over to the gatehouse so it’s sitting here waiting to grow legs.

There’s also a stack of random papers from the mail that I haven’t put away yet.

Still, all in all not too bad.

Until.

Until you turn the corner and see this.

Sometimes living rooms like this one get messy with dirty dishes and crumpled up pillows.

Here’s the living room after a Gilmore Girls watching marathon.

Couch turned.

Cushions tossed to the floor.

Popcorn bowl next to the fireplace.

My house pillow all smashed.

Remote controls, head bands and cups are a few of the items that clutter up a coffee table.

Here’s a close-up of the orange juice.

And the headbands.

And the remote controls.

Most homes like this one have a messy pile on the stairs waiting to be brought up.

And as you pass through to the family room, you’ll spot this on the stairs.

The pile.

You know.  The pile of stuff at the bottom of the stairs that wants to visit the second story….

….but never really does.

Day after day it sits there watching as people walk by it to go upstairs.

That second floor is so close and yet so far.

This messy family room has old flowers and pillows on the ground.

Here’s the family room.

Here’s the peonies that have seen better days with petals all over the counter.

People spent the afternoon in here drawing and glittering and decorating the bucket list and the bucket the list goes into.

You can see our entire list here.

This summer bucket list made from clothespins and a real bucket is adorable.

Here’s the summer bucket and all it’s glitter.

The middle schoolers that live here patiently explained that when you complete something on the list you place it into the bucket.

We can’t just cross it off a list.

That’s so last year.

This white kitchen full of light has dirty dishes in the sink and dirt on the rug.

Here’s the side view of the kitchen with dishes stacked in the sink.

And rolls of paper towels on the counter.

And dirt on the floor from playing football outside.

And a missing mixing bowl that’s in the other room with popcorn in it.

This farmhouse kitchen and dining room needs some tidying up.

Here’s another view of the kitchen.

With my purse.

And a hairy dog brush.

This dog bush out of place on the dining room bench needs to be put away.

And just in case you missed it.

Here’s the dog brush in all its glory.

Nothing says real life like dog hair.

This desk area with papers everywhere needs organization.

And here’s a side view of my desk where I blog.

And all the random papers that never really find a home.

And a picture of an actual land line to one day tell my grandchildren about.

This back porch with fallen flower pots and dirt needs to be cleaned.

If you open the door off the kitchen to the back porch, you’ll see this.

Dirt.

This is the dirt that made the plants that I took out onto the stone patio.

This quaint laundry room has piles of dirty clothes that need attention.

Here’s the laundry room with its stacks of towels.

And bag of laundry waiting to be washed.

And I won’t be the one washing it thanks to one of the most brilliant decisions I’ve ever made.

This grand hallway has piles of towels on the ground that need to be cleaned up.

I’ll leave you with a view of the back hallway.

Here’s the rug that I’m always straightening when the dogs and the kids run through and knock it crooked and the towels stacked outside the laundry room waiting to be washed.

I hope you liked the tour of a house well-lived with our orange juice and popcorn and pillows on the floor and couches celebrating the Gilmore Girls.

True confessions, though.  

I had to pause mid-tour and stop here in the hallway and close the door to my teenage son’s room.

It might be a little too much imperfection for a holiday weekend. 🙂

Comments

  1. Image for Mary Mary

    Ha! Not so bad KariAnne.... I'm trying to de-clutter and have piles of items to donate.... EVERYWHERE! So, don't feel so bad. I think all of our houses look this way at one time or another..

  2. Image for Barbara Moore Barbara Moore

    Your lived in home is lovely. It represents a loving family - the single most important thing in the world.

  3. Image for Trina Trina

    Your house is still perfect even with the imperfections. I always wondered where you kept the TV. Currently, my boys have all the blankets and pillows from the house and are building forts in one of the bedrooms. I just hide my eyes and walk passed. There is special tape that you can buy to stick to the bottom of your rug so it won't move. It's like rubbery. I don't know what it is called but I think you can get it at Lowes or Home Depot.

  4. Image for Rachel Joyce Rachel Joyce

    I was sitting here in all the chaos from the kids wondering where that was...until the end. I just need to figure out how to get them to limit most of it to their rooms. But your little one are older than mine, so maybe there is hope for us yet! :-) Thanks for showing a bit of reality.

  5. Image for Laura Laura

    It's even more gorgeous now since we get to see the evidence of life's greatest blessing-family. Let's hear it for real life!

  6. Image for Nancy @ Slightly Coastal Nancy @ Slightly Coastal

    Oh I love lived in houses. They have their appeal just as much as the "perfect" houses. I write this as we are in the middle of a massive garage clean out and I have loads of home decor stuff piled on my dining room table waiting to be sorted and the littlest has used all my pillows to make a little fort under the dining room table covered in home decor. It's better this way...for now. Hope you are having an awesome weekend. Nancy P.S.-Because the world works in myserious ways...before I could hit "post comment" the dog walked over by my feet and threw up. No joke. There's nothing like cleaning up dog puke to make you realize how much you need to mop your floors today. #reallife

  7. Image for Linda Andersen Linda Andersen

    Oh Karianne, I love you, you call that real life with 6 people and now I find out a Golden in that gorgeous house? Impossible!!! The best line I ever heard "nothing says real life like dog hair" too true!!!!! You will find me sitting on your side porch or front porch one of these days....your home is the epitome of a dream house in my book. Now I want to see what's behind all those cool doors....what a beautiful home you have made.....oh and speaking of hair, you must get a Furminator! Especially with a Golden. I have a Jack Russell and 4 cats (shh, yes I know, crazy cat lady, it just happened, I swear) and it gets tons of hair off of them and they like it! Linda

  8. Image for Tania Tania

    I love it! Finally, someone who shows real life! And Guuuurrrrllll, you need one of those stair-step shaped baskets to hold the pile that never makes it upstairs! Tania

  9. Image for Debbie Debbie

    That's pretty much my house every single morning! I go around straightening everything up, fluffing pillows, tidying up. But, like your house, it's never too bad....just real life popping up to say hello, I'm here! Love your house, so beautiful! Happy Memorial Day, my sweet friend!

  10. Image for Susie from The Chelsea Project Susie from The Chelsea Project

    I love your photos. Your house didn't look so messed up to me. Honestly, I'd have to clean up to make my house look that out of place. Lol... It's sweet, charming, and 100% Karianne... Just the way we like it. Have a wonderful holiday. Susie from The Chelsea Project

  11. Image for Kelley Kelley

    Really??? Your home is beautiful!! But that is what you classify as messy? A random lamp shade placed on a table and a blanket not folded on a chair? Please! I love your home- absolutely gorgeous but if that is what you call lived in and imperfections, you must be living in a museum other days! Kelley

  12. Image for Bridey Bridey

    I absolutely love that we can actually see the layout of your house in these photos and not just specific vignettes. (I'm sure the wide angle lens has something to do with it). And believe me, if my cottage full of seven home-schooled kidlets ever looked that clean, beautiful, and uncluttered even for a moment I would be sharing it with everyone!! I love your blog and your house--popcorn and all.

  13. Image for PC PC

    I think your house looks great with or without fluffing. I will tell you a secret - I thought the children were the major messers in the house - once they were gone, it turned out to be us!!! Have a great summer filling the bucket with activities.

  14. Image for Mel Mel

    Your house still looks beautiful in every way! Love it! If you have the day off for Memorial Day or plan a fun cookout too, please take a moment or two to remember those who have given the ultimate sacrifice for our country on behalf of the President and Congress sending us to war and for their families, children, brothers, sisters, and parents. Sincere thanks!

  15. Image for Patty Patty

    Honey my house is cleaned - yes we have 2 dogs and 2 cats - but we are retired so I clean up all the time. There are no fingerprints, no shoes laying around, no dishes where they shouldn't be and NO children. Our "kids" are grown - no grandchildren - and I miss the mess. Enjoy it while you can because all too soon it is over and everything will be in order and it will be lonely.

  16. Image for Donnie Donnie

    So now you can come see us! Share and share alike! We have three grands here this week, so we have Legos, cars, crafts, etc. it all looks like love to me and I'll sure miss it when they go back home and it's just the two of us again. Enjoy, it goes so quickly.

  17. Image for Marisa Franca @ All Our Way Marisa Franca @ All Our Way

    Love it when life enters and perfection leaves. Our dining room table was always a catch all! Everything was dropped on it as the kids walked through - some items missed the table and hit the floor. Life and family are beautiful -- warts and all. You have a great family and your home reflects it. Happy Memorial Day!

  18. Image for Michele Michele

    : - ) I think your "imperfection" is perfect, just perfect. Thanks for sparing the teen boy's room though - I only had two girls, boys are a whole different story. Hugs.

  19. Image for Ellen Ellen

    This is the best post ever! Just when I thought you had reached the ultimate you outdid you! Perfect and so you too. But I won't believe you weren't wearing red lipstick while clicking away. I always get a smile ( sometimes tears too) from your posts. Thanks to your awesome self for this guided tour- photos and house are beautiful.

  20. Image for Gee Gee

    Hahahaha. There is beauty in everyday living!! :p As I sit here... my feet propped on the coffee table, a large dog where my feet should be, there are dog toys all over, a doggie blanket and pillow. Laundry on the laundry room floor as I sort.... Yeah, a hot real life mess. I am one of those that must straighten the living room and kitchen before I go to bed. Aaawwweee the perfect imperfections!! Luv them.

  21. Image for Leslie Watkins Leslie Watkins

    Real life happens to all of us. Thanks for showing us your house with it's makeup off and it's hairdo askew!! Happy Memorial Day!

  22. Image for Jacqueline Jacqueline

    These are my favorite kind of pictures - even "messy" your house still looks gorgeous, and I just love the evidences of real life - they make rooms come alive!

  23. Image for NormaJean NormaJean

    I always wondered how you could have such perfection with 4 kids, a husband and pets. Now , I realize that you are just like the rest of us (only so much more talented!). Thanks for sharing "real life" with us. It only makes us love you more.

  24. Image for Preppy Mountain Farmer Preppy Mountain Farmer

    I was so excited to see you do a post on your house when it is not perfect. Thank you. But after scrutinizing each photo, I feel worse than ever because your house is still ten times neater, cleaner, shinier than mine on its best day. What do you do with all the school papers, books, drawings, and photos? What about bookbags and lunch boxes and bills and all that miscellaneous stuff that children and husbands walk around with and then just drop wherever? Where are the shoes, flipflops, and barn boots? Pencils, laundry folded and waiting to be put away, catalogs, magazines, and extra programs from the children's most recent performances? My list could go on and on. How is it possible for so many of the decorating bloggers to continue to have such pristine homes with a house full of children and pets? I could seriously benefit from some practical tips on how to keep a house with a large family in it so clean and orderly. I'll bet I reposition sofa cushions, throw pillows, and blankets dozens of times each day, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Please share some helpful tips on how to keep a house so picture-perfect.

    1. Image for KariAnne Wood KariAnne Wood

      This would make a great post! Here's the answers: 1. The papers go into a drawer in the office under the stairs. Then once every couple of months, I sort through them and move them into a box in the attic. 2. Book bags have to go into their rooms once they get home. Bills go into the in box on the desk in the office. 3. Shoes are sometimes scattered around the house. Mostly they go into the rooms of the people they belong to! 4. Pencils go into the drawer under the space with the papers. 5. Laundry is folded and put into people's rooms. This is kind of an issue. As I type this there is a big pile of laundry on one of the couches that I just asked the basketball player to put away which he did with a smile. NOT. :) I think because the kids are teenagers it's easier! It was a lot more work when they were younger. Happy day friend! karianne

  25. Image for Sue Sue

    I really don't think it's all that bad for a home of six people plus pets. Rats! I still couldn't find the tv! Must I look a little harder?

  26. Image for Donnamae Donnamae

    Funny thing...there's only two of us in the house now...and we still make our fair share of messes! I blame it on our cat! Yours looks wonderful! ;)

  27. Image for Karen Karen

    FABULOUS! "And all the random papers that never really find a home." I love this post! I enjoyed reading the comments and second Preppy Mountain Farmer.

  28. Image for Rose Rose

    But, for some reason it still looks beautiful We always think our homes are a mess, when really they are just lived in. Happy Memorial Day Rose

  29. Image for Leslie Watkins Leslie Watkins

    You know...just a thought...housecleaning simplified: Leave light fixture, popcorn bowl, and house pillow, etc. by your trash can...instantly they will be removed! Cleaning resolved without climbing he stairs! Lol

  30. Image for Mah Mah

    Hey, woman it is so obvious that you photo shopped all that mess! My favorite is the dog brush! Love you and your mess.

  31. Image for Joanne Joanne

    Thank you for taking the first step in making home decor about making a home for people to live in and--- showing it. We do not or should not live in a museum or a still life, but somehow that is how bloggers portray their homes. I once learned from a designer that a room is not fully decorated until there are people in it. We should never make a room look perfect without people. We all love looking at beautiful rooms and homes, but the real beauty in life is when it shows how creative skills are shared to serve others to make their lives better. I think their needs to be a design challenge to designers and bloggers to show homes as they actually function in it everyday. You are truly a gift to all of us. Thank you.

  32. Image for Sharon H Sharon H

    Still waaay better than mine on a good day! You still can not come to my house. Lol Miz karianne, if that's as bad as it ever gets then you are woman of the year! Wait....you already are woman of the year....

  33. Image for Jeanne @ I Dream of Jeanne Marie Jeanne @ I Dream of Jeanne Marie

    Good afternoon KariAnne and Happy Memorial Day, I posted this morning but apparently it "didn't take!" I just wanted to say a few years ago my sister wanted me to start reading a blog... "miss mustard seed" and I did, but after a while I told her, "Cindy, I can't relate to her because my house NEVER looks like hers!" She said, "Oh, bloggers "stage" their houses when they take pictures and show you the very best side of it." Later Marian showed a "keeping it real" picture and I was relieved. I was relieved but still found it somewhat intimidating... You are the second blogger that I've read that has shown the imperfect side of living in your home... and I truly appreciate it. It's so easy to get caught up in wanting "my house to be like your house." But after reading your posts for a while now, I want to have the same "spirit and love for my home" but not have it be a replica of yours." (although a clone of it could be a good thing too!) I do so enjoy your writings and how you make us want to love our own homes... Thanks for how you do that! Blessings, Jeanne

  34. Image for Cecilia Cecilia

    Haha I get closer sing the door to a teenager's room. Still your lived in house looks a lot neater than my clean house. Makes me think I have too much stuff. Or maybe it's just people who make messes the minute a room is cleaned. Oh well. It means it's lived in. Thanks for being real!

  35. Image for Stacey Stacey

    Thank You KariAnne, it does make us feel better....a bit. This is still quite a few grades better than mine but wait a minute.....back it up! What is this brilliant decision you have made concerning laundry????? I missed this post. Dare I entertain the idea of someone coming in and doing my laundry? Oh please say Yes! Lovely Post!

  36. Image for june june

    You are soooo funny Miss Karianne:) Your house looks amazing and you are not an empty nest like me. Okay so I have a few excuses, oldest son home from NE with fiance' wedding in less than two weeks, youngest home from college and shortly after wedding departing for grad school. So my house has had the addition in and out of three more adults and a l00 lb german shephard granddog. I wish I had less hair on my hardwood floors. Wedding gifts arriving...containers getting organized for the wedding day...planning a grooms dinner and my list goes on. But today...I took it as a day of rest...worked out at the local Y with my youngest, helping him inquire about apartments and cleaning out some old paperwork. Oh and I tackled my master bedroom closet and eliminated two bags of clothes to donate. Needed some normalcy because I know it will get crazier before calmer the next two weeks. Before I know it I will be yearning for dog hair, muddy floors, messy bathrooms and laundry. Thanks for reminding me today to put it all in perspective.

  37. Image for Mary Mary

    I've heard of house slippers & my mother had a house dress but never have I ever heard of a house pillow. Please explain. And you have nothing to worry about. Your house is lovely.

  38. Image for Nancy Nimmo Nancy Nimmo

    I'm belly laughing at the funnest post I've read in years. Bravo...and your desk today looks better than mine EVER.... you are a dear heart.

  39. Image for Susan Susan

    Love your loved in house and love Gilmore Girls! Thanks for sharing - I feel normal now and all my kids are grown up and I still fight those battles! It's called family. The best kind of mess!

  40. Image for kddomingue kddomingue

    Geez, Louise! My house doesn't look that neat and clean when it IS neat and clean! Now I feel even worse than I did before you showed your house on an average day! I have a yellow Labrador that sheds a standard sized poodle a day...... I can't keep a clean, furless floor to save my life!

  41. Image for Joni V Joni V

    Well this is one of my favorite post of the decorating blogs Ever. I love your blog pics & always look forward to them, but honestly, all of the perfection I see in a look thru of the 2-3 favorite blogs can be depressing as well as inspiring on certain days. Thanks for the reality moment ;) This post inspired me to comment for the 1st time on a decor blog! And while I'm here... I keep hoping someone will give a detailed lesson on guiding the struggling/confused decorator(ha!) on how to choose the highly important lighting style for your home. Like, can you mix it & I don't really know what IT is. I don't want all matching but not 1 of everything. With all the choices, and a budget, I get so lost. Hopefully there will be a class (for dummies) sometime. :)

  42. Image for Gwen Gwen

    You are tidy. I like that about you. Your entire mess could be cleaned up in a quick race in 15 minutes tops if you did not get sidetracked. I used to do this every night or before we left the house or before I walked out the house for work. Life seemed easier. Car? I may not get to carwash but we left the car taking every item out that went in. Backpacks hung on pegboard board ( very in in the 90's) along with coats and laundry in a covered basket. I washed towels, underwire and socks and pjs and undershirts daily. Plus another load. Or two. Good clothes all in a pile. Jeans in a pile. It got done so I could have smaller loads to fold. And everyone helped. Period. And took their stack and put away. Until girls hit about soph to juniors in high school. Ugh. Ugh. Life was not like that for teens in the 70's!!! How did our Moms keep us from being slobs???? No one had piles all over!!! But they grew up, went to college, made their own messes. My youngest daughter has a very pretty home. Should I go over and leave stuff laying around???!!! Nah huh. I'm enjoying her saying, Mom how do I fix my squash as this is happening to the plant....or Mom look at this good deal for this chair and what do you think??? And I wish you'd help me do xxxx But daughter you're doing just fine without me!!! Those days come.

  43. Image for Teresa Harral Teresa Harral

    Lovely home ! Your blogs are truly heart to heart, girlfriend to girlfriend chats and that is why we adore you so much! Come visit us in Texas!

  44. Image for Susan Susan

    No fair...your home still looks like sheer perfection! To the young lad's room, I say...give us true dirt and grit...and smelly socks! On second thought... nah...I think this is enough reality for now...hehe! I do absolutely LOVE getting to see both Bonzai and Buddy, though...I'd love to see them and their brushes and bones much more! And the kitties, too! You sure have a lot of beings to look after, which makes it all the more amazing to see how clean and organised your home is...I can only think you are a super hero rock star! The socks of teenage boys must be your kryptonite then, yes? :)

  45. Image for Sheila Irwin Sheila Irwin

    Oh how I love seeing this Kari Anne! However, I do agree with others that your messy isn't even that messy! (and it's a gorgeous house behind the mess still!:)) Sheila www.maisondecinq.blogspot.com

  46. Image for liz liz

    Beautiful home with or without the mess. You have created such a warm and welcoming home for your family, and the fact that even with the messes of daily life - it still looks fantastic - is an amazing accomplishment! I have a pup same size as Bonzai, but I have baskets of toys in each room, and there are small stuffed creatures all over my home because he loves to play with toys, they literally are scattered everywhere - so I accept it as part of my decor !

  47. Image for Julie Julie

    Thanks for this tour. It probably took some courage to post. I think everyone appreciates it. It still looks great. I have kids the same ages as yours and it is fun to see what they are up to. They all make messes! I still love your post about cleaning in 14 minutes. I was cracking up when u said, "put your shoes on, you're going to need them" :) Keeping a house clean and presentable with a family is an ongoing job.

  48. Image for Robn Robn

    It doesn't matter what little life imperfections you have, your home and family are beautiful. I absolutely love your blog and cannot wait to read it everyday. I hope you keep posting the real life.

  49. Image for DeMarie DeMarie

    It's still fabulous - messes and all. That's REAL life. My dining room table is piled with genealogy papers and birding books. I'm waiting for my OCD to kick in and force me to put it all away....so far, no luck. :-) Have a blessed day.

  50. Image for Mary Crozier Mary Crozier

    If that's as bad as it gets, you are doing a great job, girl!!!!! My two just moved back in from college and I can't seem to get ahead of all the "stuff" they brought home - I'd put it out in the garage but we live in Phoenix and I can imagine everything melting or buggy from the summer heat. If anyone went past the three entry rooms (living, entry and dining) into the rest of the house, then they would see how we REALLY live. But it is so important to enjoy your life and family-cleaning can happen later! Thanks for the shots of your beautiful home.

  51. Image for Lynne B. Lynne B.

    Well, I feel so much better now! I walked out the bedroom this morning after working late last night and looked at the mess left by others in the kitchen and laundry and thought "I can't face this", so I'll just have a quick coffee and a look at my emails and there was your timely post! Everyone here says they have to race out the door or be late for work and they will put everything away when they get home, but I can't look at their mess any longer. First day of winter here in Australia, so the fire is roaring, the dogs are curled up in front and not moving and now I'm going to race around and put things right. I love your house tours, it always looks so perfect - and now it looks real! Lynne

  52. Image for Leslie Leslie

    I do remember you being the one to volunteer if the Presley home needed a good cleaning. You may have had a little clutter now and then but the important things were done. Just like mom!

  53. Image for Pamela A Pamela A

    Kari Anne - what's the issue...this is life and a on a daily basis. We currently have our house on the market and I feel like I'm living in a bubble. My husband reminds as I pick everything up and put it away "that people have remote controls in their house". I'll be the first to omit that I'm a little OCD but I just want things to be normal again. Time for us to downsize and move into our new house that we'll retire in a few years. This reminds me how painful selling a house is. It's just the two of us, I don't know how people do this with children?!? I'm truly ready for a night on the deck having a sweet tea and watching the wildlife...anyone looking for a fabulous home in WV?

  54. Image for Paula Paula

    Love this post because it takes so much pressure off people when it comes to their own houses' lack of perfection. I do have a question. What brand and paint color is used on your kitchen cabinets? I have the same white stove and want to paint my cabinets white. Yours just look wonderful. Thanks!

  55. Image for susan yoder susan yoder

    I think this is the longest column of replies I've seen on your blog!! Doesn't it just make us feel so much better to see others flaws? LOL. BTW, they do have carpet tape that helps immensely (I hear) to keep rugs in place, even with dogs...just saying...Love the post, don't come to photograph my house now though, I am painting the whole house, may take a year!

  56. Image for kddomingue kddomingue

    Show me the dog fur! I NEED to see the dog fur! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! I'm going to just have to come to terms with the fact that I will never be a fabulous housekeeper. Sigh. I yam what I yam! :-)

  57. Image for Nancy Nancy

    Kari your home is beautiful! Thanks for sharing reality!! I love your panels in the living room! Can you share the name of the fabric? Thanks!

  58. Image for Amanda Amanda

    THANK YOU! I read all of these blogs where all you see is perfection and then I look at my lived in home and think "man am I a failure". You have just transformed all of that with this post. This is why I love you. I must also say that I love the summer bucket list---brilliant. Also I indulge in Gilmore Girls marathons quite frequently. My soul needs them.

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